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    Back to the leaderboard topic: When did they change normal Expresso to only account for wins (+1)? Pretty unfair when Nitro players receive 0,5 points. Does unfortunately incentive players to play more 15BB games and increase the rake spew.

    Are regular Expressos not rewarding one point towards daily leaderboards anymore? Or do you have to win it, like on Nitro, to gain point? Cheers
  3. Hello, 1) Will this meeting be in English- or in French speaking? 2) Will players not participating in the lawsuit still be reimbursed if there happens to be a positive outcome in this case? 3) Can you tell us shortly how French law works in this matter? If the first lawsuit fails, will there be another round in a higher court, and will there be more fees to be payed? Kind regards,
  4. Hello, Also received compensation today. After being cheated for tens of thousands of euro, this compensation is just heartbreaking. I have no idea how they calculate, but this is just plain wrong. Several questions still remains, and I'm not satisfied with how Winamax has handled this. The most concerning is that they are unable to prove cheating on their site. Trying to convince us VictoriaMo/Mr.gr33n is clean based on a small sample of 400 games, then they still choose to ban him? It smells fishy to say the least. I'm still looking for answers regarding; 1) VictoriaMo/Mr.gr33n: Unusual high number of games everyday, without almost any break, playing GTO against recreationals and having no tilt factor when playing other regulars. Having similar GTO score at skiers_5 GTO database as twopandas, but you still let him go since he showed up and played a small number of 400 games? It doesn't make sense at all. I have played thousands of games against this guy, and in my experience he doesn't feel clean. I've had similar experience before, and the players in question have always ended up being banned. Some typical tendencies for VictoriaMo that I feel are highly suspicious: i) Tanking on river before 3bet jamming with showdown value (but also have blockers). This is typical GTO play that are very inhuman, and very suspicious. Something you will find VictoriaMo doing a lot. ii) Calling down recreationals too light. Even on 4-card flush board, I've seen VictoriaMo call down a rec with a weak two pair holding, of course after tanking a bit on the river. Clearly an error if you actually play poker and watch villain play. I remember even him doing this 3-way, when ranges are even stronger. iii) Unnatural aggression tendenseis: If you're checking flop oop against VictoriaMo - you're gonna have a hard time. The aggression I've seen this player take with weak hands and blockers is just unreal. It doesn't matter if its showdown value or not. And you say this player can do this 6-8 tabling against different players that easily? 2) What happened to all the other players? What about 2SaintPandas? ggwpsirbai? There must be several other players suddenly disappearing as well? 3) What happened to ggwpsirbai after he won €800k in an Expresso? I proved to you that he and twopandas shared tables and cheated, thus they had to know each other as well. It took Winamax 20 days to only give out a warning of this behavior. No compensation whatsoever.

    Hello Winamax, Thank you for your reply and dialoge regarding this topic. I understand your argument, but I do hope your considerations are based on calculations. As I said previously, these types of games started out having high amount of top heavy distributions on all major sites. Recent years however, this have changed notably to bottom heavy to reduce variance, and less frequent 2x multipliers. This is a very strong indicator to me that based on data (they have) the usefulness is maximized for all players with this payout structure. Players are playing Expresso games, and consequently paying the rake. Therefore players should be able to dictate the distributions, if not Winamax can prove on data that other jackpot frequencies are more favorable to popularize these games. If we divide players into reg- and rec ratio, we can look at an overall simple example. All regulars should disfavor current Winamax jackpot distribution by arguments discussed such as high variance, high effective rake and extremely low chance to beating the games pre-rakeback. Regs are not the majority of the players on a poker site, but are still a good bunch, and should all have their utility functions reduced by current distributions. Recs on the other hand must have their usefulness increased by top heavy distributions, that outweigh the regs loss in usefulness. Is this proven that recs favor 4 in million chance of hitting the €1 mill. rather than 1 in a million chance? Or does they not care much? What recs do care about it hitting the 2x multiplier numerous times in a row. Is hitting numerous 2x in a row a less of a deal than having top heavy distributions for recreational players? Suggestions instead of top heavy distributions; - Remove second top heavy distribution and reduce third top jackpot - Make anniversary jackpots of winning the million. E.g. change the €1 and €5 Expresso frequency to also include wining a million, for a limited time. - Include chance of winning a million in sports betting - Make an "Expresso-week", where the soul purpose is to winning a million. For instance only million distribution and the bottom heavy distributions. Nothing in between. Thank you for your consideration. Please take a moment to ensure that current jackpot frequencies are the most favorable for players and for the bottom line of Winamax.

    Hello Winamax, In that case, the distribution on your official expresso page is wrong and has not been updated. My calculations is taken directly from those numbers. According to these numbers, jackspots are still very top heavy. Will you consider making these jackspots more bottom heavy and thus more favorable for players? Please forward this to your suggestions and improvement department. Thanks

    Thanks. My post should unfortunately be in the Winamax suggestion thread. Feel free to move it if someone feels it's necessary.

    Traduction: Autre sujet intéressant mais qui fout les boules: la variance de ces games. 48-50 par game, c’est pas mal comme chip EV à cette limite, mais comme on le voit les joueurs sont encore à peine gagants avant RB. Evidemment, le format Expresso est conçu pour être plus high variance que le SnG de base, mais on devrait tout de même pouvoir le battre avant RB. Le problème, c’est que chez Wina, on met tout sur les gros jackpots, ce qui donne un meilleur rake effectif. Ce modèle “top heavy” était très répandu aux débuts de ce format, sur un peu tous les sites. Mais ces dernières années, les plus grands sites ont glissé vers un modèle “bottom heavy”, qui redistribue davantage. Avec ça, les bon joueurs ont un meilleur ROI avec une moins grande probabilité de toujours se taper le “min-multiplicateur”. Quelques chiffres (les multiplicateurs sont tirés des Expressos 100$ des principaux sites, mais ils ne varient pas beaucoup d’une limite à l’autre. Chip EV: 50. Les autres grands sites ont un rake de 5% pour 100$. J’ai retiré les trois plus gros multiplicateurs. Cela nous donne un total de 5.94 – 5=0.94 – rake amélioré de 0.94% [image 1] Répartition des jackpots Winamax. Notez que le rake est à 7% sur les 100€. Total: 9.133-7 = 2.133% de mieux. [image 2] Autrement dit, soit on crush totalement, soit il faut espérer une flopée de buts dans les phases de poules de la CDM (Expresso Mund) -------- I'm adding my post from the other thread here (not sure about the french translation thought). Whatever outcome of the ongoing investigation, this is a change you should consider. The games should be beatable pre-rakeback, not only for the top top 1% of the players. Change the payout from top heavy distribution to bottom. Make the variance somewhat acceptable, and make the experience better for all players instead of playing 2x multipliers constantly.
  9. Another interesting but really disheartening topic is the variance these games have. A chip EV of 48-50 per games is solid for these stakes, but as we can see the players are still barely in profit pre-rakeback. Obviously Expresso games are made to be higher variance than an ordinary sit and go, but they should still be beatable pre-rakeback. The issue is that the price frequency on Winamax is very top heavy, and thus leads to higher effective rake. A top heavy model was common when these types of games was first introduced on various sites. However in the last years all major poker sites have focused on "bottom heavy" distribution. This leads to improved return on investments for skilled players along with a lower probability that you will hit the bottom multiplier repeatedly. Lets run some numbers. The multipliers are taken from the major sites at $100, but doesn't deviate much between buyins. Chip EV is 50. The other major poker sites have rake at 5% for $100. I removed the top 3 heavy multipliers. This give us a total of 5,94 - 5 = 0,94% more effective rake. Winamax price frequency. Note that rake at €100 is 7%. This give us a total of 9,133 - 7 = 2,133 % more effective rake In other words, you need to be absolutely killing the games or hope that countries score above normal amount of goals in the group stages of WC (Expresso Mund).
  10. I do not know if they are using a particular software. However it was quite easy to spot, but more concerning that I had to report it two times before Winamax finally acknowledge it. So there are more players "in the grid" here than TwoPandas and VictoriaMo. Would like to see the relationship between the players and "ggwpsirbai", seeing that he just took down the milly. My hunch is that the same eastern europeans I've been playing the last few years.
  11. Hello Winamax, Thank you for finally taking this case seriously. I'm likely one of the persons that have played the most games against both these players, and reported about this issue last year. Let me say that both their playing pattern have changed in the last 6-8 months. As discussed shortly here, pre-flop stats are not useful, especially those stats that you gave to us. Folding to 3bet less than GTO should be more EV, since recs are more value heavy. Saying that one player is folding less than the other, means that he might actually be thinking. On another note, if there's cheating going on, there are more players involved. OP named a few players including ggwpsirbai, but did not think that this player did anything wrong based on some exact match GTO stats. What I can say, and prove, is that ggwpsirbai was sharing tables with Twopandas some time ago. I had to report the behavior to Winamax two times, and it took two weeks before I finally got confirmation from Winamax about their wrongdoings. I guess it's not the same as cheating, but something to note, especially since he took down €800k in an expresso game recently.
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